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| acidtripwow Joined: May 28, 2008 |  Message [#20] posted on: 05-04-2001 07:28 AM CST (US).   |  |  There must be some truth to what ai_god and others that really like the 600 say. When I sold my pair I had more inquiries about this headphone than any other piece of equipment I've sold. I say that the 600 is a good headphone, but I just didn't hear what other people heard and that's why I sold them. When I listen to my MicroZotl and Grado HP2 I can't imagine things sounding any better. But it all has to do with personal preference and if it sounds good to you than that's all that matters. ai_god, I don't do drugs either...that is just wrong. Ouch, I just got hit by lightning for some reason! [Edited by acidtripwow (05-04-2001 at 10:30 AM).] |
Vertigo_1 Headphone Council Joined: Feb. 4, 2000 | Message [#21] posted on: 05-04-2001 05:47 PM CST (US). | | Interesting...when I chose to use the HD-580s for the night, it was because I wanted to resimulate the 400 watt subwoofers home boy cars have today for rap and techno. I certainly didn't choose them because they provided some kind of refined or beautiful sound...I chose them when I wanted to go all out headbanging for the night. Oh well...different strokes for different folks. :-) |
| MacDEF Headphone Council Joined: N/A | Message [#22] posted on: 05-04-2001 06:07 PM CST (US). | | >These friends of mine are not audiophiles but they do enjoy good >sound, albeit not with headphones.Without saying anything I opened >up the Senn box (impressive) and cued up a cut from the CD. Husband >and wife took a listen for a few minutes and both said, "wow....these >are really tight-fitting", "they sound good....really >smooth.....nice." I then brought out the MS Pros and cued up the came >cut, adjusted the volume as close as I could and handed the phones >over. Each took a listen. Responses: "Night and day!" "Unbelievable!" >"Those other things (Senns) sound muffled in comparison." To be fair, this is a really bad anecdote. As you said yourself, Joe, your friends are not audiophiles. And the sad truth is that most people who listen to music in this world are trained to like excessive treble and bass. That's what they hear on the radio, that's what they hear on the CDs they buy, that's what they hear when they audition mass-market audio equipment. For someone raised in this audio culture, the Grado's with their more forward sound and "punch" will sound "better" the vast majority of times.That's not to say that it's not a valid opinion to have; only that your test isn't really a good test. As someone else mentioned, the Senns really grow on you. I've had a pair of SR-60s for almost 8 years now. When I bought a pair of Senn 580s, I initially thought they were horrible -- muddy, uninvolving, unexciting. I almost sold them, but I kept thinking "these are supposed to be so good! I'll keep 'em around awhile." I'm glad I did, because after breaking them in, they are 50x more comfortable than my Grados, and the sound is incomparable. When I play games or listen to mass-market rock/r&B/rap, I still use my Grados; but when I want to really "listen" to music -- be it classical, jazz, or some of the better-recorded rock/r&b/folk/etc., the Sennheisers are the only thing to touch my head. I realized that I'm comparing a $70 Grado to a then-$350, now-$199 Sennheiser, but the point I'm making is that Sennheisers won't sound good to the average listener out of the box, and even if you're a certified "audiophile" ;) they take a while to sink in. But once they do..... wow. |
| Tim D Headphone Council Joined: N/A | Message [#23] posted on: 05-04-2001 06:19 PM CST (US). | | Or it could be that some people do prefer the MSP's over the SennHD600. Or are the MSP's just $20 dollar phones you buy from Best Buy? Some people don't like Senn600 and they aren't deaf...live with it. Sure they can be phones that grow on you. I just get sick of all these silly defenses...some people like em some don't. Ever since a few people stated their opinions on HD600 the following defenses have been brought up: HD600's sound great on all equipment. HD600's are for refined cultured music, not pop rock trash. HD600's grow on you. You don't like accurate bass you like deficient bass. Wow...from such CONSENSUS on these HD600's you'd start to figure out that theres bound to be difference of opinion even for people who LIKE the darn things? Some people don't like them...don't worry about it. [Edited by Tim D (05-04-2001 at 09:22 PM).] |
| joelongwood Headphone Council Joined: Mar. 5, 2001 | Message [#24] posted on: 05-04-2001 06:35 PM CST (US). | | Well, MacDEF, I think your argument has some validity. Yes, people today are accustomed to excessive treble and bass....hence the proliferation of the subwoofer and the bass boost on every electronic gadget. However, I don't believe that holds true as far as these particular friends are concerned. I've used these friends of mine to test other phones I own. They have a pair of Sony MDR-V6s, which I recommended about 10 years ago, and they like the sound. They also really liked my AKG K340s and asked if I could find a pair for them on e-bay. They thoroughly enjoyed the Senn HD-545s. For their audio system they have a pair of classic Advent speakers which are very smooth and balanced. So, even though they are not audiophiles, I value their opinions. With regards to the Sennheisers, I must respectfully disagree with your assessment. To my ears, they continue to sound bass-heavy and muddied with a recessed midrange. I don't know if I can wear them long enough to have them grow on me. I'm hoping that the Creek OBH-11 that I bought from Flumpus improves their sound, but from what I gather they do better with tubes. As I have a whole sh**load of tubed stereo equipment sitting around, I'm most likely not going down that road. Last night I did some more listening. There were a couple of cuts on an acoustic CD I have which did sound really good to me on the Senns, but there was no bass at all on the cut, it was purely vocals. They did sound very sweet. But as soon as the bass kicked in, it seemed to overwhelm and muddy everything else. I'm going to keep trying......I hope you're right about them taking awhile to sink in. I just can't imagine anything else (at least something I can afford) sounding better to me than those MS-Pros, but I'm willing to give the Senns a try. We shall see. [Edited by joelongwood (05-04-2001 at 09:44 PM).] |
| MacDEF Headphone Council Joined: N/A | Message [#25] posted on: 05-04-2001 06:44 PM CST (US). | | Tim, you had the opportunity to voice your opinion, I voiced mine. Relax -- there's no need to jump all over me, LOL. I was just trying to give some persective from MY experience -- that when I first got my 580s, my reaction was much like yours. However, over time I came to be quite amazed by them. That's it. |
| shivohum Headphone Council Joined: N/A | Message [#26] posted on: 05-04-2001 06:48 PM CST (US). | | Tim, the reason you observe such differences in opinion is because the issue of the 600's sound IS a complex thing, and does not manifest identically for everyone. What seems to be paradox is really a lack of precision--a lack of resolution if you will. The opinions are "grainy" and must be woven together into a coherent thread of Truth :-). The FACTs are: The HD-600s sound pretty good even on portable CDPs, they sound better on mid-fi equipment, and they really shine when given great sources/amps. HD600's are good for everything, but are especially good for refined cultural music, where they can reveal the quality of the recording. But they are also far better with pop/rock music than cheap headphones. HD600s sound good from the beginning if you have audiophile sensibilities (you like clear, neutral sound), but in any case grow on you and become much better with time. They may not be as "impressive" at first listen, though, as lower-level Grados and the like. The HD-600s give a deeper, more body-shaking bass than many other headphones. As you yourself pointed out, Tim, since headphones can't produce true bass, bass preference is just that--preference. The HD-600s have a laid-back presentation that some people may like more than, say, Grado sound, and that some people may like less than it. Frankly, though, I believe the vast majority of people can grow to love the HD-600s in the long run. They are, for most people, lovable phones. I would bet that MOST people dislike them because they haven't gotten use to them or haven't developed an audiophile sense of taste. That doesn't mean most people can't find other phones to be better, but merely that most people can appreciate the intrinsic beauty of the HD-600s, can acknowledge its significance as one of the best dynamic headphones on the market right now. There are exceptions (aren't there always), but that's the Gospel Truth. :-) [Edited by shivohum (05-04-2001 at 09:57 PM).] |
| shivohum Headphone Council Joined: N/A | Message [#27] posted on: 05-04-2001 06:51 PM CST (US). | | Joe, try the Creek + CD player on some well-recorded orchestral stuff. Then just sit back and relax. You will find that the 600s lend themselves to "sinking into the sound" much more readily than the MSPs, IMO. |
| headster Headphone Council Joined: N/A | Message [#28] posted on: 05-04-2001 07:03 PM CST (US). | | If the Senn's doesn't excite your soul and the Grado's doesn't lift your spirit. What about Stax's?...it may just fulfilled all your fantasy. |
| Mike Walker Headphone Council Joined: N/A | Message [#29] posted on: 05-04-2001 07:16 PM CST (US). | | As someone who works in radio, and has regular access to the direct-off air sound/vs. unprocessed sound "straight off the board" in fm control rooms, I assure you that fm radio DOES NOT have "excessive treble". It is literally impossible for an fm station to broadcast all of the treble that is on a cd, while at the same time maintaining competitively high loudness, due to the pre-emphasis curve used in fm broadcasting, which boosts highs during broadcast, and cuts them by a reciprocal amount at the receiver (thus reducing noise, similar, though not identical to the way dolby noise reduction works). Because highs are VERY boosted in comparison to midrange, they "peg the meter" before midrange sounds do. Hence, if the overall volume level is to be brought up to competitive, consistently high levels, high frequencies MUST be clipped and/or rolled off prior to the pre-emphasis boost. Hence highs are NEVER, and I mean NEVER as crisp and bright on fm after going through the processing and being broadcast. NEVER! FM radio EATS high frequencies. (Yum, YUM!) Yes, fm can sound quite nice. But in a direct comparison with the original, unprocessed audio (which listeners can almost never make), it's quite obvious that fm has taken a bite out of the highs! Record producers know all of this. It's one of the reasons that they deliberately make the high end on cds "too hot", so they will "cut through" on fm radio! BTW, am radio takes a much larger bite out of highs! CRUNCH! |
| Tim D Headphone Council Joined: N/A | Message [#30] posted on: 05-04-2001 07:18 PM CST (US). | | I was only infering that it is indeed possible to not be overly impressed with the HD600 and the deficiency might not be localized in the person's ears, poor musical taste, bad equipment, or lack of experience. Also I was not denying that there may be some "truth"...I was just stating that there are extreme opposites of opinions regarding these headphones. ai_god and Mike Walker love these phones...nuff said. If people that are so different in brains, ears, experience, and equipment can like something, than surely there can be people that are also different in opinion that don't like it regardless of brains, ears, experience, and equipment. --- The only thing I worry about is maybe somehow the cabling was mixed up/reversed in such a way that the phones didn't come to me right. But Jan says he checks out every pair...*shrug*. I just don't know why anyone would like dark, or would want to teach themselves to like dark. Or how dark = clear, uncolored, neutral. [Edited by Tim D (05-04-2001 at 10:39 PM).] |
| albau HeadWize Fanatic Joined: Oct. 23, 2000 | Message [#31] posted on: 05-04-2001 08:39 PM CST (US). | | quote: Dunno if I have audiophile sensibilities but I definetely seek clear, neutral sound. That's why HD545 and especially K501 impressed me so much right out of the box without any painfull growing. And, man, they continue to impress! As I can recall nobody yet accused K501 of being non audiphile grade phones. Unfortunately I can't find exactly these qualities in HD600. I guess, there're simply more than few mutual exclusive types of sound "clarity" and "neutrality"... |
| MacDEF HeadWize Fanatic Joined: N/A | Message [#32] posted on: 05-04-2001 08:47 PM CST (US). | | >As someone who works in radio, and has regular access to the >direct-off air sound/vs. unprocessed sound "straight off the board" >in fm control rooms, I assure you that fm radio DOES NOT have >"excessive treble". No argument there, Mike -- I was merely generalizing: our pop culture (CDs, radio, etc.) does not generally produce audio that is flat/natural. Radio was just one out of a few examples I gave to illustrate that ;) |
| shivohum HeadWize Fanatic Joined: N/A | Message [#33] posted on: 05-04-2001 08:53 PM CST (US). | | quote: So that'S why pop Cds So often Sound So Sibilant! ThankS for the info. [Edited by shivohum (05-04-2001 at 11:54 PM).] |
| Suedama HeadWize Fanatic Joined: N/A | Message [#34] posted on: 05-05-2001 04:42 AM CST (US). | | I can't say that I have the breadth of experience that most folks here seem to have. I only have the DT931s and the HD600s. I only use the headphone jack of my NAD C370 integrated amp to drive them. IMHO, both are exceptionally enjoyable to listen to. The DT931s are a little brighter than the HD600s. The DT931s allow better identification of individual instruments and frequencies, but this may be due to the fact that the HD600s are not completely broken in. It does seem clear to me that both of these headphones are on the same high quality level. For now I give a slight advantage to the DT931s. |
| jaghouse HeadWize Fanatic Joined: N/A | Message [#35] posted on: 05-07-2001 11:57 AM CST (US). | | i agree ai_god ... With the right associated equipment the Senns are mind tripping. However you CAN pair these headphones w/ rock. Melvins never sounded better! Turn it up. peace |
| blr HeadWize Fanatic Joined: N/A | Message [#36] posted on: 05-09-2001 05:19 AM CST (US). | | I enjoy this topic. One thing we haven't touch so much upon is partnering equipment. IMO that's why one can hear so different opinions on the Grados and Senns. The amp is only part of the story. How about the CDP? Different players can sound very different. Some of them sound plain harsh and fatiguing others are smooth and neutral. How about cables? My point is that we cannot evaluate headphones regardless of what they're connected to. I agree that differences in headphone sound are perhaps bigger than differences between similarly priced sources but we all have different ones, ranging from portables to 1000+ dollars high end. An then finally the ultimate truth is that it's a matter of taste. We are talking about the best dynamic headphones here. When you go that high good and bad sounding become somewhat irrelevant. |
| JohnActon HeadWize Fanatic Joined: N/A | Message [#37] posted on: 05-09-2001 07:55 PM CST (US). | | Excellent, excellent post, BLR! |
| Brock_Landers HeadWize Fanatic Joined: N/A | Message [#38] posted on: 05-09-2001 08:44 PM CST (US). | | Doh! They closed the other thread! I was gonna get a pair of IXOS DJ1001 headphones after reading a review on it in IGN.com. The reviewer was practically wetting his pants over it. He claims it has perfect mids and gave it all your typical audiophile praise. I am now having serious doubts about getting it after reading ai_gods review. It doesn't help that the place I'm ordering from (accessories4less.com) refused my credit card and hasn't gotten my money order (its been 9 days) I'm thinking about spending the extra dough for the Senn HD600s. Can someone tell me how much leakage it has? One of the main reasons I initially went for the IXOS was because it was a closed-type pair of cans. PS Are the Senn HD600s still $205 USD here? |
| jaghouse HeadWize Fanatic Joined: N/A | Message [#39] posted on: 05-09-2001 08:47 PM CST (US). | | yeah... I have now realized how subjective audio can be... given the vast number of equipment combinations and differing opinions/tastes. Forums like this can be much more benificial than Stereophile, StereoReview, Absolute sound etc... |
| Raymond HeadWize Fanatic Joined: N/A | Message [#40] posted on: 05-14-2001 12:48 PM CST (US). | | A tip of the hat to you, MacDEF for your comment about untutored listeners. It puts me in mind of the continuing and amazing phenomenon of Bose loudspeakers - you will find few audiophiles who take them seriously, but Bose does move them to the masses. Kudos to Bose's marketing, brickbats to their engineering. Open one up and you'll see what I mean. I have the 600s and am as opinionated as anyone. That said, I'll admit to the excellence of the Grado, Stax ( used to have In any case, it's refreshing to see the nature of the debates here stay reasonably civil. If you want to see the antithesis of Socratic discourse, have a look at Audio Review or, sometimes, sad to say, Audiogon. Why people whose opinions differ from yours or mine have to be vilified by the opposition just escapes me. Am learning a lot here and am grateful for the bank of knowledge freely shared. Peace from a non-flower child...... |
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